As a woman of words, Ms R is perplexed. Truly she is feeling a little out of touch with adjectives used in modern parlance. When a woman is described as curvy, Ms R automatically thinks of someone with a bust and hips, as opposed to say the boyish athletic type or the skinny, bony type. You can be slim and curvy; you can be voluptuous and curvy. When you are really fat, you do not have curves. Which brings us to one Beth Ditto. Whether you like it or not, she is a fat chick. Now, if she's happy with that, well and good. But what's really behind the Ditto worship?
Stylist Katy Grand, a woman who makes a lot of money creating trends, has featured Ditto on the cover of her new magazine, Love. We are informed that designers were falling over themselves to dress Ditto for the feature. More likely they wanted to work with Grand. Fashion writers, who would sooner amputate their arms to lose weight than be 'curvy,' are hailing Ditto as a role model. Well they can pretend all they like, however this isn't about making fat girls feel better. There is no democracy in this posturing. Fashion thrives on the shock of the new. And fat is about as big a shock to fashion as you can get. Because let's be real: clothes do not usually look great on seriously obese people. (They do look good on curvy, large people.) Which brings us back to this nonsensical situation where we're being asked to accept that a woman who would medically be described as obese is now desirably 'curvy'. There is a strong sense that this is a quest for redemption; a kind of Hail Mary for fashion writers who spent years selling us pictures of girls who are not just slim, but seriously underweight and unhealthy.
When Ms R's best friend recently went on a diet she did so after announcing she'd put on two stone and felt 'fat.' She did not say "Ms R I'm going on a diet because I feel curvy." What next? Will we have 'anorexic' being described as 'trim?' Short people being described as 'nearly tall?' Or dead people being 'just past asleep' because the word 'death' becomes too much for us?
Beth Ditto is fat. And if you think that's fine, good. But don't pretend that she's anymore than a fad. As for 'curvy' you can stick a spade on a canvas and call it art. Most people will still see a spade.
Thursday, 19 February 2009
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34 comments:
As I live in a non-English-speaking country, it didn't occur to me until recently that 'curvy' had become an euphemism for 'overweight'. I still find it perplexing, although if you look at with a certain logic, I guess it's an - albeit pliable - truth: it just depends upon whether you prefer your curves concave or convex and where. For the record, I am curvy. And I don't do 'diets', unless we are referring to 'diet' as a term for 'nutrition'. I do eat.
Swiss Missus: it's everywhere now and it's thoroughly stupid. 'Curvy for me when I was growing up with a dressmaker mother was about having bust and hips and a tummy, like women have. And even though I'm a small size, I have those things. Look, if someone who is fat is fine with it, good, but they're still fat. I don't diet either. Last night was five courses.
It's a symptom of the fashion industry's need for extremes - whether that be body-shape or some outrageous new design. They don't do 'normal'.
Hear hear!
I personally find 'curvy' the most annoying and insidious euphemism this side of 'nice personality' - a devious attempt by the chubby squad (of which I am an ex-member) to convince us that morbidly obese walking heart attacks are actually voluptuous, healthy 'real women' and role models for us all.
And if I hear that old chestnut about Marilyn Monroe being a size 16 again, I'm going to scream - sorry but that's utter bollocks. Just watch Some Like It Hot. If you genuinely believe that the toned, big-boobed but tiny-waisted Sugar Kane is the same size as the lumpen hausfrau wobbling round your local Morrisons with a trolley full of choc ices, I'd advise you to get yourself down to Specsavers as a matter of urgency.
And while we're at it, ix-nay on the argument that men really prefer curvy women, too. If you want to see what sort of women men really prefer, just look at the women selected by those men who can literally take their pick.
The day Donald Trump, Tom Cruise or David Beckham marries a woman resembling Beth Ditto, I will believe that the hysterical cheerleaders for 'curves' and 'real women' have a point.
Until that day comes, you'll find me in the gym...
J x
Mmmm. I like the new word 'curvy' and the fact larger women are being let out of their corner of shame. People come in all shapes and sizes and the social inclusion of 'curvy' or 'fat' people or whatever you want to call them by the fashion fachistas is good. I'm not sure there is always the necessity to call a spade a spade -sometimes it is nice for the larger contigent in society to feel they are appreciated too.
Dotterel: Absolutely. Moreover it is cynical.
Juliette: Well, that was worthy of a post in itself. Very funny.
Anon: Appreciated? Ok and good. Just say that fat is ok and be happy for fat people. |But let's not pretend that obese (not just fat) as Ditto is that she's Monroesque curvy. And let's not pretend that Size 24 is a good size for fashion. Because frankly as nice as it is to be nice about people, you can stretch the untruth too far.
Hi Ms R,
I don't agree. I think this is a fashion statement in the same way as it is a fashion statement to see stick thin models modelling size zero. And if it allows larger women to feel they are not marginalised in fashion terms then I am all for it.
Anon: Not so sure. Stick thin models do wear clothes better and that is a fact. They look crap in real life but that is different. However do you really think the festishing of Beth Ditto is a step forward in saying fat people are as acceptable as thin ones in fashion. I am not sure. Thank you though.
It seems to me you are making a lot of assumptions.
I have looked at the images of Beth Ditto and yes, she is fat, but I do not see how one can assume that she is any less fit and healthy than her thinner counterparts.
I can speak on this with some authority. Anyone who stops by my blog can see occasional pictures of my wobbly bits. According to my female doctor I am medically obese (though, interestingly, my male doctor says I look "all right to him".) I sometimes have to buy a size 24 top in order for it to fit comfortably around my mighty bosoms. Yet I am undeniably attractive, stylish and able to yomp around the countryside for hours on end without needing an oxygen tent. I am both fit and healthy. Clothes *do* look good on me. And off me, for that matter.
Fashion designers prefer size zeros because any simpleton can drape a piece of fabric over a stick and make it hang nicely. Once you introduce the element of lumps, bumps and wobbly bits you start needing a modicum of skill and talent.
Should curvy be a euphenism for fat? I don't know. Why not? It's no more meaningless and dismissable than any other media buzzword. For years we've been informed that titless horse-faced junkies are "sexy". I have yet to hear some poor underweight waif claim "I'm feeling a bit too sexy, I've got to gain a few pounds or the doctor says my periods will never return."
It's all bollocks, whichever end of the spectrum it is.
Oh, and the old chestnut about Marilyn Monroe? She probably *was* a size 16 under the measurements used to denote such things at the time, but women's dress sizes have grown, along with women in general, since the Second World War.
Luka: Sorry but I've seen pics of you and you are not like Beth Ditto. So I don't think we can compare you. I'm with you on the titless horse faced junkies being 'slim and healthy' and I hated all that. I will defend your right (and Beth's) to be who you want to be and what size you want to be. But here Luka the fact is that while you are genuine, all those doing the writing about how great fat is are fashion editors who DON'T believe a single word they're saying. In other words, she is being held up as no more than a circus creature by those who would HATE to be like her.
If fat is ok, then call it fat. And if a person is happy then I am happy too.
Anon 13.19: I should add that I don't think a pic of an average singer whose fatness has got her more attention than her singing is evidence of fatter women being accepted. When stores start stocking great clothes in 16,18 then you'll be talking. But do they want to?
On internet dating sites women describing themselves as 'curvy' are almost always anything but. (or so I have been told)
What happened to 'plump', or 'cuddly' or 'buxom' as euphemisms?
More to the point, did the whole BBW thing just stop?
In the context of your original post MsR, I'd say this.
Given the choice of a night with Beth Ditto or a night with Victoria Beckham I doubt that I am alone in opting for the one that can sing. Which ain't no passing fad, it was ever thus.
However, that is of course not just based on body size. Were the choice to be between MsD and MsR, then obviously I'd not be alone in choosing the one who looks *so* good in a bikini
Freddy, you as always are the voice of common sense - and good for girl's ego:)
Hi Ms R,
I don't really care what the fashion editors think. It may be cynical but I think seeing a bigger woman made into a glamorous icon is a breath of fresh air after years of watching skeletons. And a lot of people seem to think she looks pretty good despite her weight which I think IS a positive thing for larger women. We will have to agree to disagree on this one! Thanks for a great blog.
Anon: My pleasure. Thank you for your views.
"Curvy for me when I was growing up with a dressmaker mother was about having bust and hips and a tummy, like women have. And even though I'm a small size, I have those things."
Yes, I can identify with that, minus the dressmaker mother.
And that's the crux of the matter: women are, by and large, designed to look like and be shaped like women, not little boys.
Btw, anon above: B. Ditto is not a 'bigger' woman. She's huge. She looks morbidly obese to me, but if she's comfortable rolling around in all those layers of fat then good for her!
I'm all for people feeling good about themselves, whatever they look like. But I do agree that "curvy" has become a catch-all for "not-thin", and it's deceptive when used as a description because it evokes an impression of a voluptuous hourglass figure, which is not the same as spherical on legs, or sporting the bottom that ate the world.
Political correctness these days seems to mean that one cannot be seen to have any interest in one's weight unless one is obese. You can't put on a couple of pounds and worry about it because a) you're a twig (I'm not. I just dress well), b) you probably have an eating disorder (I do. It's called chocoholism) and c) by not being morbidly obese and wishing to stay that way you cast aspersions on everyone who weighs more than you (I couldn't give a fuck what anyone else weighs, I'm only interested in me!me!me! Do catch up) and of course d) if you don't overeat you lack sensuality (uhuh. I'm a frigid cow, but I'm a thinnish one).
There is a health issue here, too. For some body shapes, carrying extra weight is more harmful than others. As a classic non-curvy apple shape, I put on all my weight on my tummy, which increases the risk of heart problems, as well as the aforementioned ball on legs look. Some of those "curvy" people are probably far healthier than me, but I can guarantee that quite a few of them aren't.
And yes, the fashion editors' glee is hypocritical, considering how much time they spend not bothering to hunt down decent fashion for ... well, anyone, really. But that's a whole other rant.
Swiss Missus: I have to say that the tummy is something I acquired in my forties and I do struggle with the idea of not having the flat tum anymore but I agree that we are not meant to look like boys. If people find Ditto attractive good..my upbringing alone dictates that I won't and I'm afraid that's the way it is.
Z: I like the perspective you've put on it. I too find that because I'm slim I'm not allowed to voice concerns when, like now, I have eaten puddings for a month and developed a little tum. It doesn't feel right on me and yes, I am a vain cow. And yes I love looking trim in my clothes. I also love food but was brought up to leave some on my plate at each meal and never to overeat. If people choose to do so that's fine but yes, it can be annoying when they criticise me for what they see as too much self-control.
I've had a productive day (and am feeling rather smug as a consequence), love puds, hate exercising but will if the burgeoning hips tell me to and am now raising my glass of well-earned Rioja to vain cows everywhere. :)
Nigella Lawson is curvy.
Beth Ditto is Rubenesque.
And let's not forget that none of these euphemisms - slender, slim, healthy, curvy, voluptuous - are actually synonymous with 'beautiful', despite what the fashion industry would have us believe.
Real beauty can't be faked - an average looking woman who loses a lot of weight just becomes an average looking woman whose friends think she's looking a bit haggard these days.
But this is the fickle tide of the fashion industry, surely? Of course the fashionistas don't really want to be like Beth, or even design clothes for her, and are going for shock value - but, so what? How does it matter one jot? If I were Beth I'd take the money and waddle too.
Maybe I am coming at it from a different angle. Having always been big I have always been largely ignored by the fashion industry. It has no relevance to my life and I am a bit perplexed at how many people seem to be personally affronted by this Beth Ditto interlude.
I have to say, the impression I get is that there is much Fear of Fat about the place. It is ok. Even though Beth is popular at the moment you do not have to be her. No one is going to insist you quaff a quart of vegetable oil and join the blubbery masses. Don't be frightened. It's not like the pressure to be thin that us porkers have to face for our entire lives. Chill. Next week it'll be Posh Spice again.
Way back in August 2007, Ditto appeared in her underwear in POP, Katy Grand's other publication. This is looking a little desperate and unoriginal. Let's face it, aside from Ditto, there aren't any other obese models or even pop stars. She's the token fat chick. It's neither good nor bad, it's just the way it is. She's not representative of anything. She's merely a girl that happens to be friends with a very famous stylist and has done just enough to warrant being given a cover. It's unlikely that following this there will suddenly be a glut of fat models turning up on the cover of fashion magazines. The fashion industry will not change as a result of this. This is very much a one off and, I'm sure, that's exactly the way Katy Grand likes it.
Swiss: And I raise my glass back. After the chocolates are finished.
Melissaria: Ah yes the beauty element. It's true and that's what Miss Luka (below) forgets as she herself is rather lush and lovely.
Suzanne: For a lady with a terminal runny nose you have made today's point with style. I salute you. Brilliant.
We have a downturn. If you want to maintain your material sales volumes, you have just got to start targeting the Women of Samaria
Ho Hum: And where will I find them?
In camping stores
I think it's a shame that people these days are so judgmental about the size that someone chooses to be. I couldn't care less if people are slim or overweight - it doesn't affect me in the least. There are too many people these days going on about weight issues.
I don't understand why the word curvy has caused so much controversy, and i dnt understand why there is so much prejudice against big people. i know many women who could be described as curvy and they look damn good!i don't think that the word curvy is being used as a euphenism for fat, so you can eradicate that thought from your narrow minds right now, and even if it was, so what?! does it matter? im curvy(if im allowed to use that word) and i think i meet the guidelines for it, (big busted, wide hipped, little tum) stop making women with these features feel bad about themselves, we can't all be followed round by professional photographers and airbrushing machines.
The euphemism "curvy" has created controversy because people don't like being BSed--including many fat people themselves. Plus, this condescending pity term really fools no one, least of all the obese woman who knows she doesn't look anything Marilyn Monroe.
Ms Robinson, allow me to help you out regarding the euphemistic employment of the word “curvy”. The word “fat”, which I personally believe, should function as a simple descriptor, differs substantially from others – such as tall, short or blue-eyed – in that it is not a neutral descriptor but a loaded one. Fat has become synonymous with a vast list of negative stereotypes that most folk, regardless of body type, would wish to distance themselves from – ugly, stupid, greedy, lazy, slovenly, asexual, unmotivated, lying, self-deluding, morally suspect, smelly, diseased, unhealthy by default, to name the most common. So deeply ingrained have these conflations become in a society that is seriously fucked up about health, food and body image, that the word “fat” is almost universally used as an insult. Similarly “obese” or “morbidly obese” which, in the hands of most laypersons – yourself, it would appear, included – generally translates to “fatter than I find sexually attractive” or “fatter than I can stand to look at”. (As opposed to a weight category predicated on a totally arbitrary figure on the BMI scale. Lest you need reminding, fat alone is not a medical condition, and bandying about pseudo-medical bullshit terms neither justifies prejudice nor lends it any gravitas). But I digress. Since "curvy" is not considered an insult and "fat" is, of course the fashionistas currently engaged in fêting Beth Ditto, are not going to describe her in terms they would perceive as offensive.
While I agree the fickle world of haute couture probably is paying lip service to Ditto for shock/novelty value, I must disagree with your generalisation that really fat people don’t have curves. Fat women come in as wide a variety of shapes as their slim and average sized counterparts – and that includes the classic hourglass. I would, however, agree with your assertion that size 24 is not a good size for fashion. Indeed most size 24s can look forward to being blanked by every clothing manufacturer on the high street, and routinely ignored by every mainstream fashion magazine, despite the fact that half the UK female population takes upwards of a size 16. Furthermore I would add that, since what little choice there is is generally grudgingly provided by designers who never bother to do any market research, things are unlikely to improve any time soon. If an industry that shuns fat people bases what it thinks fat women want to wear on their own prejudice or what they see them wearing already, it's hardly surprising when they come up with a selection of tents in a choice of “slenderizing” navy or black, or a pile of vulgar, rhinestone-encrusted polyester shite. Since you're so keen on getting real, let’s see you look great if that’s all you had to choose from.
If your happy being fat fine. But don't expect other people to pay taxes for your health problems.
Anonymous, assuming your comment was addressed to me, nowhere in my post did I discuss my weight or my happiness or otherwise in regard to it. What I did discuss was size prejudice something you seem to think is justified in relation to your wallet.
May I remind you that fat people are tax payers too? And that the combined funds of any country's citizens pay for things we don’t necessarily need, uphold or reap the benefits of as individuals. My taxes, for instance, will go towards sending other people’s children to state schools even though I’m childless and didn’t attend one myself. They also help fund a war I vehemently opposed. My insurance premiums will go towards fixing other people’s leaky roofs, subsidence and fire damage. Similarly my national insurance payments will go towards providing junkies with methadone and mending the busted limbs of anyone ill-advised to go pot-holing or quad bike riding. Fat tax payers are every bit entitled to medical care, should the need arise, as anyone else who helps fund the NHS.
And your grammar is shite, by the way. Your opening sentence should read. "If you're happy being fat, fine." How dare the government squander my hard-earned cash attempting to educate pillocks who plainly don't pay attention in class.
Buffpuff, you shouldn't insult another person's education just because you don't agree with their opinion. Any ways I can see that Anonymous has a point. People do come in many shapes and sizes, but people need to realize that you aren't considered curvy just because your fat. Sure there are woman that are fat and curvy, but most aren't. Its hard for healthy normal woman to call themselves curvy because when a person thinks of the word curvy they see an obese women. Women have to stop lying to themselves and realize that whether they are happy or not, they are not healthy. Plus if women really are happy about their weight they should'nt need to describe themselves as curvy. I think that other people should'nt have to pay for other people's health problems when they decided to be unhealthy(not health problems like diseases, conditions,or problems resulting from accidents). Sorry about my grammer. I'm very tired.
You’re quite right, Second Anonymous; it was very bad form. But since the opinion First Anonymous expressed was a) Irrelevant to the original argument, b) Irrelevant to any of the points I made and c) An egregious assumption about my health, about which they know precisely nowt, I was feeling less than gracious.
With regard to your own comment, you have pretty much reiterated most of the negative stereotypes I listed in my original post – plus a few more I omitted to include the first time around, such as flagrant irresponsibility and deliberately electing to be unhealthy. Cheers for that because I don’t think enough bigots got the memo the first nine million times around. Likewise, my heart bleeds to discover that fat people have willfully ruined the use of the word “curvy” for all those morally righteous enough to be truly deserving of the epithet. As I said earlier, if “fat” hadn’t evolved into one of the most heinous insults on earth, perhaps more fat people wouldn’t feel the need to resort to euphemisms. I’m perfectly happy with the word personally, but then I made a conscious effort to reclaim it about 25 years ago, much in the way some gay folks elect to call themselves queer, and for similar reasons.
This was not a discussion about health or taxes; it was primarily about aesthetics and euphemisms. Appearance is not a reliable indicator of health regardless of body type and, I reiterate, many fat women are hourglass shaped; in other words curvy.
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