So Lord Steel thinks there are 'far too many abortions.' Exactly what are 'too many' as opposed to a good number? The potentially, ludicrous logic of his comments indicates, among other things, that to speak about abortion in generalised statistical terms, to even attempt to do so is frankly missing the point. And the main point is that abortion is not the government's decision to make and cannot be looked at in terms of collective statistics. It is simply too multi-layered for that.
Abortion is, and always will be, the most personal of decisions. For many women, it will be the most agonising and frightening one of their lives, one that requires them to make a judgement that, despite the idiotic pronouncements of MPs, is not as easy as taking a number and waiting in line. And yet when they make that decision, when they have walked the floorboards late at night, speculated on what could be and what couldn't be and looked at the cold reality of their lives, many of them will still be unsure. But they will go ahead because they actually don't have a choice.
Many of these are not the 'irresponsible' young women who think abortion is just another form of contraception (this is of course another argument featuring government policies that do not dissuade teenage single mothers that we won't go into. ) These women are also not anti-life. But because we live in a world where categories are mandatory, it means that anyone who chooses an abortion is, by default, anti-life. This of course is fatuous nonsense. These are women who want the best for any baby and for themselves. Because - and this may be unpalatable to some - abortion is not just about the unborn child. It's about the woman who must ultimately consider whether she can give that child a real shot at life, indeed any sort of life. And sometimes the circumstances that have brought her to this clinic, where she is still wondering what she is doing, are more complicated and multi-layered than any government debate - even if it lasted for 100 years - could hope to discuss.
My own insight into this came in 1997. By that point I'd been taking the contraceptive pill for at least ten years without a break. I felt good on it so it was no hardship. We'd not had sex for at least four months, not unusual when things are going awry. And they were. My marriage was a mess. I was at that point in a relationship where you are lonelier than you would ever be on your own.
And then that January, in the middle of not knowing what was going on, we had sex. Who the hell knows why? Maybe it was one last time since we'd realised we were going to split up. Two weeks later my body felt odd and I immediately knew there was a problem. I'd had a stomach bug and it seems that the contraceptive pill that had not let me down through far, far more active sexual phases, chose that emotionally fraught moment in my life to do so. I brought in the pregnancy test to show my husband and then said, "Right well I have to book the abortion." He agreed.
For me there was no other choice. I was emotionally drained from the last year of trying to work it out and I simply could not risk having children because of my organic propensity to depression.* This was something I'd discussed ten years previously with both my doctor and my mother. The idea that I may be doomed to a life of even greater depression in the event of having a child - and the child would quite possibly be affected both directly and indirectly because of it - was something I knew I could never cope with. I have a hard enough time getting out of bed when the black dog hits. As my mother said, "It would be the most selfish thing to do to a child."
My own decision was made without too many visible tears, partly because it'd already been made years before and I'd gone through hell at that time. I did find it a bit troubling that, once in the clinic, they insisted on showing me the scan again. All I could think of was that anyone who'd taken as many anti-depressants in their young life as me would be chancing a non-healthy baby and why would I do that? And whether or not you think it is a dot, an embryo or a baby, the fact is that someone has to give their life to it. And I had no life to give. I'd taken all possible precautions to avoid this choice. But here I was. Just like many other women in the same position.
At the clinic, I was relatively fine but it was patently obvious many women were not. I mean emotionally. There was the woman whose husband had, just that month, walked out on her, having made her pregnant with a potential fifth child. There was the woman who dearly wanted a third but told me she had no money and even having a second had pushed her. Her and her husband had gone through hell but realised that if their other children were to have any chance, they couldn't have another child. He was crying. She was crying. There was no right and wrong. Just tragedy really.
There was the one you don't, won't ever hear about. The Indian girl. Totally silent and obviously scared, she sat in the recovery room trying to hold it together. But she couldn't. One of the other women was comforting her. It seemed she'd had a non-Indian boyfriend - itself a major transgression in her family's world and she'd used condoms but had accidentally got pregnant. If any of this had been discovered by her family she would have easily been banished or perhaps worse: an honour killing as we know is not completely off the cards, even in Britain. A friend (white) had brought her here but was not able to collect her. She would have to stay as long as she could, before going home and hoping there were no complications - which for the most part there aren't. Not physical ones anyway.
As I looked around there were not many of those young, 'silly women' around, you know the kind government MPs would shag if they had the chance. These were people who'd given their choice a lot more time than any government debate and white paper could ever do. In the end, while I acknowledge this is not an ideal occurrence, it is a reality; just as we have to have social workers to watch over children in danger and homes to house forgotten, abused children.
Like it or not, it's just the way life is. Ok? It's just the way life is. And more often than not, it means that a woman can go on and actually have a life instead of ruining hers and someone else's.
*In response to those readers who have seen the mentions of this post on Devil's Kitchen, The Telegraph (not complimentary but pretty stupid too) and Stumbling and Mumbling - and concluded that I found the child 'inconvenient' when I say 'depression' I mean the kind that is 9.75 out of 10 in severity. The kind that means I take medication so I can actually get out of bed. The kind that means I cannot, not take medication. Medication and babies do not mix. Get it? I am not talking about the kind of depression you get when your next door neighbour builds an extension and you want one too.
And while I'm at it, those men (yes it was men) who suggested that I should know that having sex makes babies..(doh) and therefore should not have had sex (somewhat bitterly I note), I stated I'd taken the pill for fifteen years. There was nothing to suggest it had not worked. Indeed it has worked since. So all my precautions put me in a position I had tried to avoid. But I still had no choice. I am in no position to try and look after a baby or even have one since I cannot come off medication that would possibly damage the baby, or I am literally unable to function in any way at all. Rock. Hard Place.
By the way, all of you people who say that I could give it to someone else may wish to adopt a girl from China, where they are stacked up in line, having been born and tossed into the bin you keep telling me about.
So, please read the facts rather than inserting your own emotions into my story, and into the stories of lots of other women who do not take such decisions lightly.
Thursday, 25 October 2007
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46 comments:
It's the best thing since sliced bread.
Excellent post. Really, really excellent.
I had an unplanned pregnancy at 19. I chose to have the baby, but it was a *choice*. The fact that I could have had an abortion if I had needed to meant that I got to take that long hard look at my life and myself and decide whether I could raise a child at that stage in my life. And that has made all the difference.
My mother was 20 when she feel pregnant with me, and didn't have a choice. She has always regretted it (as she did her second, unplanned, pregnancy) and my sister and I have always been aware that we were not wanted. My mother called me her 'spanner in the works'.
But I got to chose. And my son knows that. He knows that I didn't choose to get pregnant (heck, he's an intelligent young man, he can do the maths) but that I did choose to have a baby. He was unplanned, but not unwanted. And that is important.
I applaud your honesty and as a fellow depressive who has chosen not to make anyone pregnant unless they have the support systems in place, and for your candid and totally realistic post.
Take a look over at Musings ( www.biologicalfeatures.blogspot.com
Its my personal blog as opposed to my political one
You have put into words what I have thought since I was 18 but the guilt+abortion - vs - pro-life feelings always pushed me into the pro-choice box as if I was anti-life or something.
I simply could not agree more.
For fucks sake email this to the nationals.
I'm here via DK, excellent summary.
And now I wish Id taken the opportunity to talk to you when you offered x
I heard this headline on the News yesterday and I really would like to know just what the statistics are in terms of 'those who present for repeated abortions (and) are treating it as a 'long stop' contraception'.
If that really is the case, I can assure campaigners that having such a procedure without the anaesthetic as I did would make them view their future contraceptive choices a great deal more cautiously.
But, whatever the semantics, a woman's right to choose is paramount.
Your choice, your call. Would your delicate psychological state have always tipped the scales that direction?
It remains a hugely loaded and divisive (and unlegislated) issue here, and all the while thousands of women travel to Britain for terminations each year, a journey that is theoretically illegal.
Ms R, how did you know you were depressive? I often wonder what's the difference between fullblown depression and melancholy.
Recusant, I loved your comment on narcissistic journalism. So on the money. Are you a journalist?
Agree with everything you just said. Oh yes, I am oh-so-tired of busy body government officials legislating what we can and cannot do with our own bodies. I’m also pissed as hell at their directives about how we should also feel about those bodily functions.
Not every child is a blessing. Not every woman wants to be a mother, nor every man a father. There are people who simply do not want children, regardless of how emotionally or monetarily stable their lives are. Abortion is not a means of contraception for these people. It's a safety net in the terrible event that all else fails. Lord Steel and GW think there are too many abortions in this world? Well, I think there are too many people. Six billion and counting is quite the load.
If these know-nothing politicians were really concerned about "life" on this planet, they would quit making women and men feel guilty and instead educate them on contraception, family planning, and the perfectly legitimate right to just say no to childrearing.
Well, it's hardly a novelty for me to take an unfashionable view, but at the risk of making myself very unpopular, here goes...
I will never, as long as I live take the view that no life at all would be better than a poor quality of life. If I do, then I'm arguing against my very own existence, and my poor brain just can't take that.
My mother was offered, in fact encouraged to have an abortion in her early pregnancy with me. My father was killed in a road accident just days after they found out that I was on the way. There was no money, no insurance pay out, very little support and a level of grief and practically suicidal depression that the poor woman can still hardly bear to discuss, 32 years later. Who in their right mind would look at those circumstances and say, 'it's clearly best for everyone if that woman goes ahead and has that baby'? But my mum thought just that. And it was very, very hard for her. Whilst I haven't escaped emotionally unscathed by the difficulty of my upbringing, I can promise you all that neither she nor I would have it any other way now.
Our legislators can't be expected to construct laws on the basis of individual stories though, regardless of which side of the fence they come from. All they can do is look at the science and best ethical reasoning currently available, and try to decide at what point one person's right to life must supercede another's right to choose. It's an impossible call in the absence of a definitive scientific answer to the question 'when does a collection of embryonic cells become a human being'? Should it be conception, birth, or the currently accepted point known as 'viability' - a 24 week cut off point which is in itself the subject of hot debate?
I don't have a viable proposed solution to offer, and I really hope that you can see that I'm not out to upset or offend anyone who has had their own heart-breaking decision to make. But I can't sit here and keep quiet in full knowledge that I wouldn't be alive had my mother followed the pro-choice logic. And it's just not logical for me to support a position which once had the power to render me non-existent!
So much for blogging "light" Ms R. :-) I can't agree more. Having walked past demonstators to help a friend with an abortion, I know too well the pressure any women is put under to make a decision that is potentially not right for HER. My friend did the right thing, but having pictures of dead babies thrown at her as we left was more horrifying than whatever may have happened in the clinic.
Troika: Well, not quite but I think I know what you mean.
Anon: Thank you for the compliment. It's interesting since you and Melissaria below have totally different views, but then that's why this is so hard for governments to get involved with. I firmly believe it's a personal choice and I agree that the child must be wanted. And maybe that is the result of my upbringing but that too, is just the way it is.
HenryNorthLondon: Welcome to you. I think those who do not suffer from serious depression (and I am talking serious) would not understand.When I spoke to my psych and then to my mother about the realities, I realised I would need a man who was utterly patient and supportive, not to mention well-off and quite possibly a nanny. And then I would probably hate myself for not coping. I don't personally believe in children at any cost but I respect those who do.
Peach: I may just modify and write to the nationals.Thanks. It's alway s hard to write things like this.
Mark W: Welcome and thank you for your kind words.
Cake: Well yes but I didn't elaborate at the time. And yes, it is ultimately a woman's right to choose. But why they think it's easy, I don't know. It's not. Even when, like me, you know it's the best choice for you.
Conan: I think I am too fragile to cope without the kind of support systems I described to Henry above. This is not a discussion we had lightly.
Hope you didn't think my earlier question facetious Ms R - it's just I often wonder which side of that particular line I walk.
Very well said. Yes, I think you should send it to the papers. The idea that the government or doctors (here many doctors refuse to do abortions or even give out contraception) should play judge and jury with women's ability to choose is wrong. However I don't think the objective of lowering abortions is a bad thing. Not necessarily by reducing the amount of time in which one can have abortions etc but better health education in schools etc although i know abortion does not mainly affect the young ....
Just that abortion is traumatic for many and it would be nice for less women to suffer this procedure. maybe i am being too idealistic.
Betty's Twin: Well I guess it's a medical condition: these days I can tell when I start craving weird amounts of salt. It is like being locked inside a room where the walls are closing in. You become irrational, exhausted, teary and can only see darkness. Normal misery can be alleviated by a day out with a friend. This cannot.
Moi: Well it has reached epidemic proportions in your part of the world - interference I mean. The thing that gets me is the sanctimonious men - most of whom are not the sort of men women like (See DK's blog and the idiots who commented when he mentioned this post) who think they know it all, who think we are all stupid and do not take responsibility for our actions. And yes, for some of us, children are not part of our lives. This idea of having children no matter what is nonsense. And my point is that even the best laid plans go wrong as mine did with the contraceptive after 15 years. You cannot be black and white about such things. In this country the ad vice about contraception is woeful and so is access. And for poor teenage girls, a baby might get you a council house and therefore the only shot at a life you have. In Britain anyway.
Melissaria: Please do not apologise for your view - I may disagree but I understand where you are coming from. I was not willing to risk my health: it has been risked a couple of times without pushing it further by having a child. I adore children and am very nurturing but I would end up being this fragile creature who could - as I do now - disappear into her dark world at any time. As a matter of interest I was brought up to accept abortion as a last resort and that is how I used it. I am missing out on things by not having children - I know that - but my depression already removes me from life when it happens. I do not believe in children at any price. I am sorry, but I don't. And yes, interestingly I accept it is a living thing. But I also believe in the right of the mother even more.
"One November
spawned a monster
in the shape of this child
Who later cried
But Jesus made me
so Jesus save me
from pity and sympathy
and people discussing me
a frame of useless limbs
what can make good
all the bad that's been done?"
- Morrissey
An excellent discussion of an important topic. As a nurse of 30+years I have shared the miraculous and the heart rending with many women. I can only pray the the *men* we have chosen to govern will-at some point become as passionate about the savageand brutal treatment of women, both young and old, in every country of the world and allow women to make choices for themselves.
Hear Hear, ms r!
I agree that it would be better if abortion were not so often the best or only choice for so many women. Or for any women, actually.
But I would go further too. The reason why it would be better, is because the women's suffering would be reduced.
When we place the "rights" of a foetus above those of an adult woman, something is very very wrong.
mellisaria I don't think has it quite right. Her mother made a choice, which is exactly what the pro-choice logic is pro.
Don't send it to the papers, it has been said a few hundred times before.
AB: The 'pictures of dead babies' scenario is one I feel certain people would love here. Now let me tell you something interesting: when I was at school it was a very liberal high school with sex education and everything (there is good family planning in Australia). Anyway one time the pro abortionists visited us and showed us a film. And then, in the interests of debate, the anti-abortionists did. Amazing? Yes it was in the seventies. The message: your choice.
Emma K: Well I am frankly appalled by the prudishness of this Daily Mail country that gets all uppity when sex education is mentioned. And the highest rate of teenage pregnancies in Europe! It should start early. Recognition that young people have sex early should also be paramount: freely available contraception should be given.
I note our friend TROIKA says it's all been said before. TROIKA, the pro-lifers have said it all before too. Everything has been said before, painted or eated. That doesn't make it less relevant.
GW: Well now, GW, I can't place that particular Morrisey gem.
Doris Rose: The men are intent on keeping power. And keeping power means limiting women's choices, no? And that includes contraception.
Dandelion: I've always believed the right of the mother is paramount. But so much of the so called 'pro-life' choice is about the rights of the unborn. And that's exactly it: it's unborn. Like an unborn animal of any other species, it is no different. We seem to see childbirth as a holy grail and maybe that is the problem too. Interestingly childbirth is, I believe, a more dangerous procedure than abortion. That is no justification, just an observation.
Troika: it hasn't been said that succinctly or sensitively, with strength but without ranting, frankly
It can never be said often enough.
Please don't stop saying it, MsR
"November Spawned A Monster", Mrs. Robinson. Though lately I have been revisiting and recaptured by "Now My Heart Is Full" and "There Is A Light That Never Goes Out".
Btw, that crisis I wrote you about has been averted. I was being silly, forget about it. xo
Peach: Thank you so much. Your own words are succint.
Bittersweet: It cannot be said too much but I despair of proper debate since people are intent on coming to the party with their views. Witness the number of people (on other blogs who mentioned this) who suggested I took it lightly.
GW: 'There is a light that never goes out' is one of my favourites.The man talks sense. And I am glad you have averted your 'crisis'. Now get back to writing.
I am probably the hardest working writer in this city right now. I leave at 7 and come back at 2 or 3, and don't sleep till 4.
A rush and a push and the land we stand on is ours.
To the people you addressed in your addendum: you are all cunts.
I think it is more sinister than seeing childbirth as the holy grail. It's about how some people value women's well-being, and how they think they have a right to interfere in what is, as you say, a very personal choice. Pro-life=anti-women, and it should be stamped out wherever it rears its ugly head. Even if we have to say things that have been said before :-)
GW: Your support, as ever, is always appreciated. Hugs. x
Dandelion: You make a good point. The rights of the mother are being submerged. The comments directed at me by people who've read the links, are really not taking account of my position or women like me at all. They all assume it was easy and it is easy for me to accept that children would be a minefield for me. They assume I did not take precautions and I am stupid. And they assume that no matter what state I am in, that someone will take care of this child. Who the fuck is going to do that? Not my mother. Not the nurse I can't afford. And then one of them suggested I shouldn't have had sex. What is going on? I am so angry. And none of them are big or clever enough to come on to my blog. But if they do...
If they do, then one would hope that the high standards of writing and comment already found here would scare off the illiterate arsewits among them. It's definitely a 'Beware of the Troll' topic though, especially with the amount of press coverage this week.
There was another great post to be found through one of the links in Devil's Kitchen - the Ministry of Truth one. It's the view from the liberal side of the Middle Ground, and is one of the first I've seen where someone dares to propose a solution. Of course, I would think it's good, given that I agree with about 85% of it, but if you haven't been there, it is definitely worth the effort, regardless of where you currently stand on the issue.
Melissaria: I suspect that may have happened! These are people who launch personal attacks without reading any facts. I set out to demonstrate that I believe it is a personal choice but not necessarily an easy one in a world where we have to have good and bad cowboys. Thanks. I read that link. It was well written.
I've tried to post a comment here since the day I first read your piece MsR. I've written and deleted at least 5 essays on why i believe in choice. I've read lots of comments, here and elsewhere, suggesting why freedom to choose is important, or why one choice is bad whilst another is good. My attitiude to abortion didn't change - I have an underlying sense that I disapprove of the process, but a stronger sense that I have no issue with the fact that the process is available for women to choose.
Nobody mentions the third choice much these days though...
Many years ago my then girlfriend delayed parental dsicovery of her condition beyond the time that an abortion was possible. Had she not done so, she would have had no choice. As it was, (in the oh so permissive early 70's) she was sent away to a hostel, gave birth, gave up the child, and returned to town with her parents seemingly believing that sending her away would mean that nobody knew.
But adoption was a choice in those days which seems to have gone now.
Is this because it now seems to be compulsory for adopted children to seek out their birth mother? Thus making the choice less simple.
"Is this because it now seems to be compulsory for adopted children to seek out their birth mother?"
No, it isn't compulsory for the child to seek their biological parents. What has happened is that it is now mandatory that, should an adoptee request it, the adoption agency hand over the details of the biological parents. Which has, as you say, complicated the issue.
(It has done the same for sperm donation too. I could donate sperm and then, 18 years later, some fucking twat turns up on my doorstep proclaiming that they are my child. Unsurprisingly, levels of sperm donation plummeted after NuLabour introduced that gem.)
Given Ms R's feminist sensibilities I suppose that it is unsurprising, but too much of the discussion here seems to be about "the woman's right to choose."
What about the man's right to choose?
"Ah," say ye all, "but it is the woman's body, so her right." But this is a little simplistic. If my ex-partner had chosen to have the baby, that I didn't want, I would still have been financially liable: I would have had to pay a large chunk of my earnings for the next 16 years to her even though I did not want the child.
Does her right to choose trump any right that I might have? (Luckily, neither of us wanted it, so it was a relatively easy discussion.)
DK
Freddy: I should stress I am pro-choice and that I regard abortion as a last resort. Adoption is not easy to do: I know two women both very wealthy and lovely, one under forty and in a relationship who have tried to adopt unwanted children here and found it all too hard. They are going overseas where it is still hard but not as bad as here.
DK:The reason the discussion centres around the woman's right to choose is quite possibly nothing to do with the man not having rights but rather that the Pro Lifers seem to put the rights of the unborn child over that of the mother, without figuring out who the hell is going to look after the child if the mother, can't and won't. I believe that is what Dandelion is getting at and I second her point.
I'm an old school feminist born in the sixties so I don't believe in excluding men as certain 'third wave' feminists seem to advocate today. I also have high ethics so would not expect to have a baby and make a man pay.That is just dishonest and immoral and women who do that are plain wrong, as are women who 'trick' men and then tell them they are carrying their baby. At the time my messed up husband who'd never wanted children also agreed. If he hadn't it would have been harder but he always said it was my decision. This is a man who failed to turn up for his own birthday so you could hardly make him responsible for anything!
But adoption was a choice in those days which seems to have gone now.
Firstly, in those days, adoption very often wasn't a choice, it was coerced upon women, large numbers of whom were totally devastated by it. The only reason why adoption happened more in in the past is because vulnerable young women were effectively forced into it. That that is happening less is a good thing, in my view.
The reason why it is happening less when you take away the coercion, I suspect is because, to carry and give birth to a child and then give it away is an incredibly hard and painful and heartbreaking thing to do, even if you did not want the child, or knew you could not look after it.
Adoption as an option is not "gone now", as Freddy says, but it may be happening less because it hurts women, and to get it happening in as large numbers, you've got to either coerce them, or take away their other choices. Lovely.
We've also seen the long-term testimony of the emotional damage that adoption does to the woman, especially, but not only where it is forced.
I'd say adoption is a way harder, crueller choice than abortion, and men who press for it really have no clue.
What this issue boils down to, for me at least, is one of rights. HUMAN rights.
Here in the states, our Bill of Rights guarantees us all the right to our life, to our liberty, and to the pursuit of happiness. It guarantees these rights to actual, real, living human beings. Not to trees. Not to tables. Not to cars. And not to a clump of cells that are not yet human, but which contain only the potential – as does every cell in the human body – to become so. Therefore, in my opinion, the RIGHT of the actual, living mother trumps that of the clump of cells with potential.
Another way to think of it: did I and millions of women like me over the past 60 years commit mass murder when the Pill we took each month prevented our eggs from becoming fertilized? How about when our lovers used condoms to prevent the "natural" course of their semen from seeking out said egg? That's a mighty big lot of humans who never reached their "potential," either. Are we to now legislate against the Pill? Condoms? Heck, under that kind of thinking, you could even legislate AGAINST abstinence!
That is how out of hand and totally irrational the pro-life argument is. Follow it to its supposedly logical conclusion and it falls apart like tissue paper in the wind.
Unfortunately the Christian Far Right don't really care about a Bill of Rights, choices for women and lifelong consequences for every one involved. The engine behind any legislation attempting to mitigate pro choice is driven almost solely by people who believe they're doing "God's work" by overpopulating the planet with babies, and that anyone who thinks or wants to do otherwise, is anti-Christian. This same attitude even pervades contraceptive use as well.
To me this issue has always been less about a woman's right to choose versus not allowing her to have one, and more one about the stupidity and regressive nature of the religious, particularly the radical religious.
In my opinion, a woman's right to choose should be a given—nothing liberal about that. The real fight, the real cancer, and the inherent solution to confronting a large portion of social problems, is not allowing a vocal, ignorant minority subversively changing every one else's way of life.
Oh, god, do you have that horrible rhetorical term "pro-life" in the UK as well? I thought (had hoped) that was particular to American fanatical puritanism. The proper term is "anti-abortion," because that's what these people are. Here is the States, the same people who rail against the deaths of unborn babies have no problem killing innocent Iraqis for oil, or enacting legislation to legalize assault weapons, or enforcing the death penalty on mostly racial minorities who have committed crimes.
Sorry, but if you support killing, you're not pro-life. That's why I refuse to dignify their rhetorical strategy by using this term.
The US Congress is still mostly men, and from what I've seen on the Prime Minister's Questions, so is the House of Commons. Until the day when men and women are represented equally in government, I don't think they have any business even suggesting to me what I should do. It's a decision that most MPs, congressmen and senators will never be forced to make.
Dandelion: "I suspect is because, to carry and give birth to a child and then give it away is an incredibly hard and painful and heartbreaking thing to do, even if you did not want the child, or knew you could not look after it." Exactly. Yet it seems to be the default solution for many who would seek to take the option of abortion away or make it more difficult.
Moi: Yes, I agree. Take the argument to its logical conclusion and it falls to shreds very quickly.
GW:You mean we shouldn't have to fight for our right to choose? Goodness me. What next? The vote?
Marcelle Manhattan: Welcome (and what a splendid handle). As you can probably tell I used the term 'pro-life' back at those who seem to think the woman should have no life and that it is all about what is inside her. And yes it's strange that those who advocate the death penalty and kills people in foreighn countries in the name of cheap oil (for what else is there?)can then use their God to proclaim abortion is 'wrong.' As I have repeatedly said, it's not ideal but it's necessary.
Now, apologies for turning up so late to this debate, but I, at first, thought I would avoid commenting on this altogether. However, there is one point I would like to make, even if it is slightly tangential.
There is a lot of talk in this thread - and from you too Ms R - around the 'men's power over women's bodies' theme. Sure, there are ugly and unattractive(in all senses) men arguing to restrict women's abortion rights, but there are just as ugly and unattractive men on the other side. Never let it be forgotten that women, in all surveys of their opinion in the West - whether electoral or opinion polling,are against abortion at a rate that is consistently 50% above that of men.
In the end abortion, like contraception, is very much more approved of by men than women because it does something they really like: removing their responsibility.
Recusant: you make a fair point and I have already conceded this is not black or white. I am not trying to make men the culprits and am aware many women vote against it, though I wasn't aware of the statistics.
I would think some men are happy to remove responsibility but the men I've met do not take abortion lightly. I think they just feel powerless a lot of the time.
Oh, Ms R, I am only now catching up on my blog reading. You have been tossed about on some stormy seas, haven't you? I have little to add that has not already been said, other than to curl my lip at those rabid "pro-life" trolls.
The point has already been made about the woeful lack of sex education and availability of contraceptive advice. I had to explain to the doctor I recently saw at my local hospital what the pill was I wanted was called, how it was spelt (so she could look it up in her big book of medicines)and that I needed to take it every day. Luckily I don't actually need said pill for contraception, it simply has a beneficial side effect for me, but if I did, I would have been up the duff in a few months, given she was under the impression you had a pill-free week on it, when you don't.
Add into this the fact that many doctors prescribe pills that don't suit their patients, (because the newer versions, with fewer side effects, cost more) and you'll find women are less likely to take their pills consistently and correctly.
Luka: Yes, my life hasn't been easy, to put it mildly.
No, Ms. Robinson, we should fuck. With impunity. And good sense. And then dance our legs down to the knees, and have tea afterwards.
I don't really like an argument that says that if women do something odious to other women it's less bad than if men do it. 50% of nothing is nothing, so I'm not sure what recusant's statistic is really telling us. That some women are anti-abortion as well as some men kind of goes without saying, and certainly doesn't make it any more acceptable to me.
Also, I don't completely agree with the response to DK's point. One sub-text of the pro-lifers is that if women don't want a child then they shouldn't have sex. In which case, the same of course should go for men, which it clearly doesn't - cf the great market for prostitution, abandonment of offspring, and rape (greater than amongst women, anyway).
I too have high ethics, and I would expect a man to pay his share for his child - not for my benefit, but out of my responsibility to the child. In the ideal world, sex-partners would be honest and up-front with eachother about this topic before doing the deed, but there's a reason why men who want to have sex but not a baby don't tend to insist on a legal agreement beforehand that should she become pregnant she'll have an abortion.
Men know that women's fertility is finite, and they know that if she becomes pregnant, she may find she wants to keep it, and they have sex in this knowledge.
I really don't see why women should have to mitigate for men's sense of powerlessness, especially within the context of their wanting casual sex, and what they're prepared to say (or pay) to get it.
(nb, I'm only talking about men in the general sense here, as a group - no aspersions on DK or any other individuals)
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Being a British Asian I can relate to this post so much.
Two years ago, I missed my period and although I was in a long term relationship and living with my (White) boyfriend, my mother screamed abuse, called me every man under the sun and refused to talk to me unless I got an abortion.
Luckily, I wasnt pregnant but I've never really forgiven her for that.
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